August 30, 2023
Abby Havermann
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Abby Havermann:
Saying yes to yourself isn’t about you, it’s about the lives that you touch
Announcer:
Welcome to Agency for Change, a podcast from KidGlov that brings you the stories of change makers who are actively working to improve our communities. In every episode, we’ll meet with people who are making a lasting impact in the places we call home.
Lyn Wineman:
Hey everyone. This is Lyn Wineman, President and Chief Strategist at KidGlov. Welcome to another episode of the Agency for Change podcast. Today’s guest is Abby Havermann, coach, speaker, and author, authenticity enthusiast and seeker of truth. Abby works with both individuals and organizations, but her specialty, and I know this firsthand, is moving high achievers from the hot mess express to harmonious aligned action. Along the way, she teaches clients how to stop proving their worth and start owning it. Abby, welcome to the podcast.
Abby Havermann:
Thank you, Lynn. I’m so excited to be here.
Lyn Wineman:
I am really looking forward to this conversation, and I want to jump right in because I have said out loud that one of my bucket list goals is to do a TED talk, and you have done it, and I think a lot of people learned about you by first listening to that TED Talk. Women’s Liberation is an Inside Job: Ending Self Betrayal, and you talk about some personal experiences in there. Can you share your story related to that podcast and the lessons you learned?
Abby Havermann:
Yes. That podcast germinated almost two decades ago, really that story, and I was a couple’s therapist. I was married to a relapsing addictions counselor, and I was arrested for domestic violence.
Lyn Wineman:
Oh my goodness.
Abby Havermann:
And they heavily edited that TEDx, so the whole story really didn’t get out, which was kind of a bummer. But the crux of it really was that we had a scuffle, which was very uncharacteristic. He was completely out of it. He shoved me, I slapped him. I was leaving him the next day, and so he called 911. And what I did not understand is that there’s a mandatory arrest law in Colorado, and back then I was much more concerned with what the neighbors were going to think.
Wanting to protect. I didn’t want him to go to jail. And so I answered their questions as women often do, and certainly as a psychotherapist, I always was taking responsibility for my part in things. Meanwhile, he was telling them a whole different story, and they had to arrest somebody, and they arrested me. I had to spend the night in jail.
Lyn Wineman:
Whoa.
Abby Havermann:
Because, I know, because they couldn’t process the paperwork soon enough or whatever. And it was that long, dark night of the soul that I had this awakening because of course, I started like, oh my God, this is ridiculous. I’ve got so much things to do. I’ve got a pack. I can’t believe that this is happening. These cops. Blah blah blah.
Lyn Wineman:
Of course, you’re going through your to-do list at this dark hour. Yes.
Abby Havermann:
Of course. Yeah. I was in real denial about what this all meant. I’m like, well, this is just another ridiculous escapade from living with someone with an addiction. What I realized, because I was aggravated at him and at the cops and all these things, and through this night, this very long night, all of a sudden I really came to understand what my own culpability in landing myself there for the night was. And it had to do with a lot of self betrayals, not just on that day of covering for him, instead of protecting myself and my two-year-old for that matter, who wound up for a night with him when he was under the influence. But going way back to even marrying him to begin with. I knew I didn’t want to marry him. I really began this journey of excavating and self-discovery and understanding where do I need to take responsibility for where I am betraying myself and how that is landing me literally and figuratively in jail.
Lyn Wineman:
Oh my goodness. Abby, so many things in what you just said there, and I’m going to just ask you a follow-up question on that because so much of what you said I relate to. I have not spent a night in jail yet, but who knows, maybe that should also be on the bucket list. It would be interesting. I hope my mother’s not listening to this. If you know my mother, please don’t tell her I said that, but why do we as women betray or maybe we start with humans and go to women, why do we as humans and women betray ourselves in such ways?
Abby Havermann:
Yeah. I really think it goes down to worthiness issues, and that’s really what my Ted talk was about, essentially, and it has to do with our conditioning. We betray ourselves because we are on automatic programs going through our lives, and that’s just how we have evolved. If you think about when you get up in the morning and you’re making coffee and you’re tying your shoes and you’re grabbing your keys, and you’re doing all the things, you’re not really fully conscious of that. If I asked you to walk through what were you thinking or doing all this stuff this morning, you couldn’t tell me because your body knows how to do all of those things without you having to engage your mind in it.
The problem is that when we also behave that way with our thoughts and our emotions, and so we memorize these states of being, and when we do that, for example, we are so comfortable and used to feeling, let’s say guilty, that the feeling of guilt comes up and we automatically do the thing that we’ve practiced doing when we feel guilty, which is in many cases, all the things we just say, “Oh, I feel guilty, so I’m going to do this for this person.” When we do that, that is a self betrayal because unless we’re doing that with consciousness, with saying, “I’m going to do this because this is what I want to do because I have the bandwidth to do this, because it feels good to me to do this,” then we’re self betraying. We’re doing it because I’m going to feel guilty if I don’t. We’re doing it to avoid bad feelings, and that is a self betrayal that can lead to burnout, resentment, all of these things that drain us and frankly make us sick.
Lyn Wineman:
And Abby, I know you work with a lot of women, and I’m just going to come right out and tell everyone, you’ve worked with me for several months now, and I so appreciate the work we’ve done. Why do you think we do these things and we get so far down the rabbit hole that it feels like we can’t get out? You can’t see the top of the hole anymore?
Abby Havermann:
Yeah, I think, well, first of all, because we’re in these automatic programs, it’s really very subconscious. We’re only thinking consciously with 5% of our brain. And so we have an idea like, oh, I want to make this change in my life. But 95% of who we are is this subconscious set of programming of unconscious thoughts and beliefs about ourselves. And that’s really what’s driving us. And what happens with high achieving people is that we’ve gotten to where we are based on certain behaviors and thoughts and beliefs, and sadly, for a lot of high achieving people, those have to do with also a lot of self coagulation and keep driving, driving, driving, because if you don’t, you’re not worthy. If you don’t fix this, you’re not worthy, unconsciously. And the problem is that that life leads to feeling like you’re at the bottom of the pile, and then all of a sudden, before you know it, you can’t see the forest through the trees.
And this idea that all of the really wonderful qualities that got you to where you are, are not the ones that are going to get you to where you’re going is really hard to swallow because you feel like, but no, if I let go of all of these things, then I’m going to lose everything. And then you’ve got to come up against yourself. And as humans, we don’t like to do that. Our bodies don’t like to feel uncomfortable. We don’t like to come up against ourselves. And that’s really what my work is about, is coming up against yourself.
Lyn Wineman:
So Abby, as somebody’s in that cycle and they’re in that cycle of self-sabotage, could you explain what are some of the signs or triggers that we might see, and how can someone start addressing them if they’re like, I feel like I’m at the bottom of the pile at this moment. What are the signs and how do you start to address them?
Abby Havermann:
Well, a lot of times I will talk to people and they’ll say, “Oh, this is the last thing I feel like doing.” And they’ll tell me that while they’re getting in the car to go do it. That’s a sign.
Lyn Wineman:
Yes, that’s right. I’ve been there so many times. Yes.
Abby Havermann:
Yeah. That’s a sign that you are betraying yourself. You have to stop and ask yourself that question. If you are feeling resentful, resentment is a wonderful clue. When you’re feeling resentful, it’s because you said yes when you meant no somewhere, and there was a reason that you did it, and you’re telling yourself that you did it because well I have to, I don’t have any other choices. If I don’t, this’ll happen, or this is one of my favorite, it’s the right thing to do.
Lyn Wineman:
Yes.
Abby Havermann:
What if what the right thing to do is actually the complete wrong thing to do because when we say it’s the right thing to do, or I have to, what that means is if I don’t do it, I’m going to have some really uncomfortable feelings because maybe people will be upset with me, or maybe I’ll feel selfish, and God knows, nobody likes to feel selfish, and that’s all we’re seeing. I’m going to come up against those feelings if I don’t do it. But we have a lot of excuses about why we have to do it.
So those are all signs that you are about to self betray. And the way to unwind that is to stop and to look at your inner world and figure out what is driving my behavior right now without any judgment. I’m a bad person if I don’t do this. I’m a good person if I do do this. I’m selfish. I’m all these things. So-and-so’s going to be upset with this. I’m imperfect if that. None of that, that’s just noise. But really looking at what is my motive here? Am I doing this because I feel guilty? Because if I am, then I’m likely going to feel resentful afterwards. Does that make sense?
Lyn Wineman:
It does.
Abby Havermann:
I could talk for so long-
Lyn Wineman:
But, I’m going to ask you a question that actually you and I have talked about extensively in your sessions and helping me. It feels like we’ve all grown up with these mantras. We have these mantras, no pain, no gain. Fake it till you make it. If your ship doesn’t come in, swim out to it. I feel like there’s so much conditioning out there to convince us that the journey has to be painful, that if it’s not painful, we’re not doing it right. And that makes it so hard to decide, am I really feeling guilty here, or am I just working hard? Right? Do you hear that all the time?
Abby Havermann:
Yeah. But honestly, I hear it when someone even gets to a certain level because you have to have a certain amount of curiosity to even get there. You have to really have peeled away some layers of the onion to even ask yourself that question, because most people out in the world aren’t even asking that question. They’re just, oh, I have to. There’s no choice. This is the only thing. And they don’t see where they’re betraying themselves. And so I love that question because it means that I’ve got a fish on the hook, someone’s interested in themselves, and now I can work.
Now we can really dig in and see what’s going on in there. It takes time to figure that out because we are habituated into ignoring our intuitions. I talk about this actually in the TED Talk. I retell the story of Little Red Riding Hood and my belief that really that never would’ve happened if she had just listened to her intuition because she knew that she didn’t trust this guy because she kept asking questions, and yet every time she asked the question, she kept moving closer. So how do we know when it’s like, well, it’s the right thing to do, or when it’s, no, it’s making me anxious, and it takes some time. It takes some presence. It takes some practices and an interest in really getting to the bottom of, wait a minute, I need to take a beat and really figure this out.
And sometimes that means we have to close our eyes and we have to really block out the stimulus. And what would this be like if no one were in my ear about this, including myself, including if I didn’t have this thing that I’ve got to have this TED talk or I’m going to not be doing anything, or if I don’t do this by the time I’m this age, then I’m nobody. And really say, “Okay, let’s put all of that aside. Do I have the bandwidth for this right now? How am I going to feel if I do this if I don’t do this?” And ask ourselves some hard questions?
Lyn Wineman:
Yeah. Abby, do you find that people kind of want the quick fix? Abby, can you just give me the five techniques to make me feel better and I’ll be done? Right? Do you have a list or a book or something and I can just quickly read it and understand the things and be great?
Abby Havermann:
I think you would like that.
Lyn Wineman:
I would like that.
Abby Havermann:
Can we stop? Right?
Lyn Wineman:
That is why I asked the question, because I’m thinking back to when you and I first started. I’m like, okay, tell me how to do this. All right, I can do that. I’m going to be fine now. And then it’s like, oh, no. We still have some hard, deep work to do. Yeah, it’s kind of like marathon training. You can’t train for a marathon in one day by reading a Google article.
Abby Havermann:
No. And we have a myth that we really think we know ourselves, and really what we call ourselves is really just our personality, which is a collection of parts. But if you think about it, you feel differently based on what’s happening in your world at any point in time. You have one part that wants to get healthy, and you have another part that wants to eat the chocolate cake. So there’s constantly different parts arguing with itself, and there’s a lot to unpack. Our minds are incredibly complex. So this idea that we can outsmart ourselves in 1, 2, 3. I used to say that when I was a therapist, some therapists like, “Oh, I’ve got a 1, 2, 3 process, and it’s like baking any proper cake.” No, it’s not. Not if you really want to see real change, and the reason is because we’re hardwired.
If you think about tying your shoe, you learned how to tie your shoe several times with practice. You practiced it. Well, guess what? You’ve been practicing feeling guilty. You’ve been practicing feeling weight of the world’s on your shoulders, you’ve been practicing taking care of everyone and everything for decades. It’s wired into you. You have to unwire that, and it does take a little bit of time.
Lyn Wineman:
Yeah. So Abby, one thing I know about you is you like to talk about the elephant in the room, and I’m curious about if you’ll share it with us. What is your technique for getting past small talk into the heart of the matter?
Abby Havermann:
Well, I mean, first of all, not everybody wants to get past small talk, and I don’t knock that. We need all kinds of people in this world. I’m way too much for a lot of people. So if someone isn’t wanting to-
Lyn Wineman:
That’s why we love each other Abby.
Abby Havermann:
You and I, we are a lot, right? But if people don’t want to get past small talk, we don’t need to do that. But if you’re asking about when I’m working with someone in particular because sort of two different answers. In social settings, I’m going to kind of test the waters and sharing who I am and the topics that I want to talk about is really just a pretty disarming way of getting people to see that it’s okay to share. That’s what I’m interested in. But when I’m working with someone, sometimes people come and there’s a lot of things that are hard to talk about, things they haven’t talked about in a long time. And one of the techniques that is really great is you just take a step back from what you’re actually talking about, and you talk about why it’s difficult to talk about that, because that’s what’s most important.
If somebody’s having trouble talking about something, this is getting in their way in all areas, they’re resisting. There’s a resisting force, and we are made of energy, and if we are resisting something, it’s going to come back at us. So when people are upset about something that’s happening in their external world, but they’re unable to talk about what’s happening because it’s so uncomfortable to them, they are throwing energy at that. Resistance is energy. And so they’re going to see more of that uncomfortable thing. So a lot of the times what we talk about is the defense mechanisms that are happening right there. And this is an old therapy technique around just saying, “Okay, well, let’s talk about what it is that’s difficult to talk about this.” And then when they can identify that and they can disarm, they can quiet down those defense mechanisms and we can get their body relaxed, then it’s like, okay, they’re more settled into their authentic selves. They’re more settled into their sage brain. They’re more able to talk about those things because their body doesn’t feel like it’s being chased by a lion anymore.
Lyn Wineman:
Yeah, Abby, even just the way you said that, I felt you employing those techniques. I felt myself feeling more calm as you were using your calming therapy voice. So it really does work even when you’re recording podcast. So one of the things you worked on with me is a system called PQ or Positive Intelligence. Can you tell us a little bit more about this approach and how it compliments the group coaching and mastermind and individual coaching that you’re doing?
Abby Havermann:
Yeah. So PQ is actually something that I added to my arsenal relatively recently, and what I love about it is that it’s great for people who are advanced in this work and people who are complete novices. It brings all of the study of neuroscience that I’ve done down to very simple ways of understanding it. And it’s basically mental fitness, and mental fitness you think about the same way you think about physical fitness. So if you go into a gym, you’re not going to pick up 150 pound weight the second you start, right? It’s going to be small and you’re going to build. And that’s the same way that we’re working with training your mind.
What PQ, Shirzad Chamine is the founder of that, what he found through research in neuroscience, performance science, positive psychology and cognitive behavioral psychology is that in order to go through life with more positivity and less stress and anxiety, you need to grow three mental fitness muscles.
The first is your saboteur interceptor. You have to be able to interrupt that voice in your head that is constantly judging you, judging other people and judging the circumstances in your life. The second is you have to be able to increase your sage muscle. That’s the part of the brain where empathy lives, collaboration, communication, creativity, right center functions, right? That’s when the analytic mind is calmed down and the right center is more open. And then finally, you have to grow your self command muscle, which is the ability to move and shift from a state of stress to a state of flow more often. It’s an operating system that whenever I start with someone individually, I run them through a group, and then I also teach the group as a separate thing as well. And when you can lay down that operating system and people learn a way of settling themselves down, now you can do some work.
Because if your body thinks it’s being chased by a lion, you can’t think straight. You’re going to circle an analytic journey. Should I do this? Should I do that? What’s the pros and cons? What do you think? What do we think? I can’t believe this is happening. You’re in this whole cycle and you physiologically can’t get out of it. So learning this is absolutely key. And what Shirzad found is that it takes 15 minutes of practice a day, not even all at once, with an app on your phone. And you will see a difference in your brain centers. So people who meditate for hours like I do, and people who have never done anything at all, it’s a wonderful way to get your arms around really the number one thing that’s going to improve your performance, your health and wellness and your relationships,
Lyn Wineman:
Because we can’t call you every time we need someone to calm us down. We have to learn to do that ourselves. Abby, could you just give us a high level overview of the work that you do, and then I want to talk a little bit more specifically about a new program that you’re launching. But can we just start high level? What are all the things that you do to employ these principles and help different people?
Abby Havermann:
Yeah. Well, first of all, you can call me every time you need to calm down if you’re engaged in working with me because that’s how my model works. I have more of a concierge coach, and so when I’m working one-on-one with people, we have anchor sessions throughout the month, but then I’m also on speed dial, and I am also running people through that positive intelligence class. And so what I’m really doing is helping people rewire, helping them rewire out of the habits and self betrayals that have gotten them into subpar positions in their lives and to places where they’re getting more of the results that they want. And at a high level, really, most people are driven by the circumstances in their external world. We all are. And that’s okay because that’s how we’ve evolved. But the question is, what are we going to do about it? Because we can’t control what’s happening in our external world. And I heard this wonderful quote the other day, and I wish I had said it myself. If I’m not the problem, then there is no solution.
And that’s really the message because that’s empowerment. That is empowerment. And so do that one on one with people, helping them with whatever they’re overcoming in their life. That’s going to be the answer. Finding that inner tranquility, getting into that right center of the brain, where intuitively they already have everything they need to know to move forward. I love speaking on stages, and I love speaking to audiences because, and I hate the term motivational speaker, I can’t stand that because I don’t have an interest in motivating people because I don’t know about you, Lyn, but I can be motivated on Thursday and on Friday I’m sitting around watching TV. Motivating, it’s cheap. But what I like to do is really shift a perspective. I have an audience, have an aha that you can’t un-know. Once you know something, you can’t un-know it, and it launches you into what I call awakened aligned action. And that’s what I’m looking to do, whether I am speaking to an audience, whether I’m working individually or coaching people as a group.
Lyn Wineman:
Awakened, aligned.
Abby Havermann:
Aligned action.
Lyn Wineman:
Action. That sounds amazing. The triple As of all of this work. Abby, with your name, it’s the quadruple A.
Abby Havermann:
Right.
Lyn Wineman:
So let’s talk more about From Hot Mess to Harmony, the online challenge that you’re launching. Honestly, it sounds like fun. Can you give us a sneak peek?
Abby Havermann:
Yeah. So I did this challenge right after I launched my TED Talk, and it was a ton of fun. I did it live and people got a ton out of it, and I had an absolute blast, and it was four nights, and so I decided to record it separately. But the three pillars of getting from hotness to harmony is Awaken, Align and Act. And so what I did in this challenge is I took some segments out of each piece of that. It’s a longer course that I’m building, and I took four segments out of that and put them together in a challenge. And so the awakened part really is about this unconscious conditioning, the way we are conditioned, for example, as women, we’ve been conditioned since the dawn of time to base our worth on external measures from our dowry to our waistline, to how well we can bring home the bacon and fry it in a pan.
We’ve practiced that. It’s just automatic. We don’t even realize we’re doing it. So understanding the conditioning we’ve been through and the consciousness, and then an exercise to help you, what I call wake up, which is how Gurdjieff used to talk about it, wake up, we are asleep as humans, we’re sleeping. Then align, I pulled a segment out of align for this challenge, which is your primary purpose. And when I talk about your primary purpose, I don’t mean you work on branding and you help people really figure out what’s their global purpose. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about what’s your purpose in any given moment. So a lot of times people will have a primary purpose of having a day with the family, but they end up going into the office or being distracted all day. And we do that because we’re on this automatic program because like, oh, but I’m worthy if I do this and I’ve got to get this done.
I’ve got and I need to do that because no one else will do it. And we just go through that and it’s like all of a sudden, what happened to your primary purpose? I go through a lesson on that, which is really fun one where people figure out what their primary purpose is and how to figure that out in any interaction they’re having, if it’s a conflict, if they’re responding to an email, if it’s going into a dinner party, whatever it is. And then we do one on motive, which is also tough to swallow, but it’s a really good one. I mean, from working with me, I’m a little, it’s not always for the faint of heart I work with-
Lyn Wineman:
You’re not going to achieve the triple As if you don’t tackle the tough work.
Abby Havermann:
Right. So I like to hold a container of compassion, but really challenge. And so understanding your motives, and we all have different motives, whether we want to believe it or not. We all sometimes are doing things because we want appreciation or because we want validation. Teach people in that how to really uncover their motive. And the reason this is really important that we look at motives isn’t because we’ll be a better person or because other people will like us more. My reason to help people really uncomfortable their motive is because you will like yourself more. If you’re operating, if you’re really clear on what your motive is for doing something, you have less anxiety, you sleep better. You don’t have a backlash. And so that’s a really important one.
And then finally, we do a module on self-care, which is also one of my favorite things to talk about. The bill of goods we’ve been sold about self-care and why it is constantly sabotaging us. We think we’re doing it right and we’re still a hot mess. And then we’re told, why are you a hot mess? You just got a massage. And then we beat ourselves up more, and it’s just a cycle. So, I teach you what real self-care is.
Lyn Wineman:
That’s awesome, Abby.
Abby Havermann:
That’s a challenge.
Lyn Wineman:
I love it. And I know this is part of a whole new website launch for you too. Can you tell us more about the website launch? I know we have a lot of marketing people listening.
Abby Havermann:
And you know what? I don’t think I understood how important the work that you do, Lyn, is. I mean-
Lyn Wineman:
Thanks for saying that.
Abby Havermann:
I know it. Oh my gosh, I know it. But going through this process, there’s only one way to explain the way that I feel, and I keep saying it. I keep saying it because we just did a mini launch today. We’ll keep working on it and developing it more. But I feel like the Velveteen Rabbit, do you know the Velveteen Rabbit?
Lyn Wineman:
Yeah. Tell us how.
Abby Havermann:
The story of the stuffed animal who was loved so much, it became real.
Lyn Wineman:
You’re real.
Abby Havermann:
And that is exactly what having branding I think really brings to the table. It’s like I feel like I’m real all of a sudden because as you know, and as much as I want to deny it. It’s the way that you put yourself out in the world.
Lyn Wineman:
Absolutely.
Abby Havermann:
And for decades, people always tell me, well, you shouldn’t share so much about your personal life because people will think this. And people… I’m always like, “I don’t care.” That’s, to me, it’s about connection. It’s about finding meaning. People won’t think you’re an expert. Well, okay, then those people won’t work with me.
Lyn Wineman:
You can’t handle the whole world, Abby. You have to have the right ones, right? That’s what branding is also a selective process. Helps people identify who should work with you.
Abby Havermann:
Exactly. And so you’re not getting all the people that are less interesting to work with, and the people that aren’t interested, you’re not aligned with, and that you can’t help as well as someone else could help them. So it’s been really great to just see myself reflected and my business reflected with colors and logos and things I’ve been saying and pictures, and it’s tremendous. I really can’t, I mean, what fun that you get to do that for people and with people and do it so well that people can feel that way is unbelievable.
Lyn Wineman:
I’m so happy for you because I do have to say that’s the most fulfilling part of the work is when you see an individual or an organization with a new brand, it’s almost like setting them free. It’s like, I can’t wait to see how the world opens up to you with this new frame and way of presenting yourself. So I’m really excited. We’ll get a link to that website in the show notes for anybody who wants to go on and click to it. So Abby, I’m going to ask you my favorite question next, because I am so lucky on this podcast to get to speak with so many interesting people. I would really like an original Abby Havermann quote to share with our listeners.
Abby Havermann:
Just one, huh?
Lyn Wineman:
Oh, well, hey, I’m down. I’ll take the bonus quotes too. I love that you yourself are definitely an overachiever.
Abby Havermann:
Well, okay, so here’s a couple of my favorites. Stop proving your worth and start owning it.
Lyn Wineman:
Oh, yeah. Such a good one.
Abby Havermann:
Shift the focus from what you’re doing to who you’re being. That’s a big one for me. And then my last one that I always like to impress is saying yes to yourself isn’t about you. It’s about the lives that you touch.
Lyn Wineman:
Whoa, you know what? That is so good. For every person who feels like I can’t say yes to myself because I’ve been told that was selfish, or people will think badly of me. That’s a hundred percent wow. Pure gold three times over there. Thank you for that. So Abby, for our listeners who’d like to learn more about you, get to that new website, see your Ted Talk. Of course we’ll have links to all of that in the show notes, but do you want to tell people what’s the best way to find you?
Abby Havermann:
Yeah, I mean, on my website at www.abbyhavermann.com, you’ll have all the different ways to get in touch with me. People are always free to reach out to me on LinkedIn, email me. I’m not on social media a whole ton. I know I should be.
Lyn Wineman:
Probably. No, I don’t think so necessarily. Yeah,
Abby Havermann:
I go in and out with it. But yeah, my website is really the best place to reach out, get my email, all that kind of stuff.
Lyn Wineman:
Abby, what a great conversation. I feel lucky to have the chance to work with you. As we wrap up this time together today. What is the most important thing you would like our listeners to remember about the work that you’re doing?
Abby Havermann:
When you get your inner world sorted, your outer world will fall into place. There’s a way for you to not just look confident, but to feel confident. There’s a way for you to actually do less and achieve more.
Lyn Wineman:
Wow.
Abby Havermann:
I want people to understand that and that they’re not alone.
Lyn Wineman:
Abby, I feel like we could do a whole podcast just talking about that, right? Because most of us think it’s the reverse. Once I get the outside figured out, the inside will fall into place, and it’s just the opposite.
Abby Havermann:
It is the opposite. It is the opposite. Pain in life, it happens, but suffering is optional, and that’s what this teaches you.
Lyn Wineman:
So good. Abby, my friend. I fully feel like the world needs more people like you. Thank you so much for talking with me today.
Abby Havermann:
Thank you so much for having me, Lyn. It’s wonderful to have you in my life.
Announcer:
We hope you enjoyed today’s Agency for Change podcast. To hear all our interviews with those who are making a positive change in our communities, or to nominate a change maker, you’d love to hear from visit kidglov.com at K-I-D-G-L-O-V.com to get in touch. As always, if you like what you’ve heard today, be sure to sure to rate, review, subscribe, and share. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next time.