Mary Despe

Announcer:

Welcome to Agency for Change, the podcast that brings you the stories of people creating positive change in the world. We explore what inspires these changemakers, the work they’re doing, and how they share their message. Each of us can play a part in change and these are the people who show us how.

Lyn Wineman:

Hello, hello, hello. This is Lynn Wineman, president of KidGlov, and I can’t wait to share today’s special episode of the Agency for Change Podcast, which specifically focuses on advice for those who are seeking a new career or for those recruiters who are seeking to fill open positions because I know it’s hard work on both sides. Our guest, Mary Despe, is a recruitment advisor and DISC certified, behavioral consultant. And a fun fact, she is located in the Hawaiian Islands. So I’m going to say aloha, Mary.

Mary Despe:

Alooooha! Lyn, nice to meet you.

Lyn Wineman:

Nice to meet you too. You even say that better than I do. You had like this emphasis on aloooha. It sounded so much better.

Mary Despe:

Well, they like to take their time with saying alooooha. So, if you ever meet anyone from Hawaii, it’s not just aloha, it’s alooooha.

Lyn Wineman:

That is great. It has a lot more meaning to it. You really feel much more welcome that way. Well, Mary, just diving right in here. I know this is a hot topic because I feel like the pandemic has just turned the entire employment market on its ear. What trends are you seeing right now in this area?

Mary Despe:

That’s a great question. I think there are a number of trends for job seekers. Most people, if they were lucky to still have employment, they are now working either in a hybrid situation, where they’re mainly at home and maybe going into the office once in a while or they’re 100% at home. So the flexibility of adapting to a new working environment virtually and working with peers and in teams when they’re not next to you is a huge trend. And I think that will continue.

Most companies before, if they weren’t doing virtual work, they said, oh no, we don’t do that sort of thing, but the pandemic forced everyone to have to do that thing. So that will continue I think. I think for job seekers, you will find that many people are, they call it sheltering in place or job sheltering in place. They might want to look for new opportunities, but because it’s still a little uncertain, they’re just going to stay put. They’ll just stay put in their own place and ride it out until things start to normalize. So those are two of the main trends that we’re seeing because of the pandemic. At least that’s what I see.

Lyn Wineman:

Interesting. I’ve been thinking a lot in my personal life about pent up vacation demand, right? Like, in a few months, as things open up, I can’t wait to take a vacation, but you’ve just opened my eyes to something, that it might be a lot of people out there who have stayed put, and once they feel like things have normalized, they might start searching again. So it’s a good time for employers to focus on retention I imagine.

Mary Despe:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You’ll see a lot of places now, like Google and a lot of the startups and not even just there, they didn’t have a work from home policy, but now they’re like, no, if you want to do it from home, you can forever now, if you want to. So it’s interesting to see that.

Lyn Wineman:

We’re doing the same thing. So KidGlov is an advertising agency and I always believed, as the owner, that you had to do that work together because there’s a lot of collaboration and brainstorming, but our team has done so well working virtually over Zoom and communicating in all of the other different ways that we have opened our minds as well. And we’ll do the same thing. It really opens your world to employees from across the country and clients from across the country. And so that’s interesting as well. Mary, can you tell us just a bit more about the work that you’re doing and how you match job seekers and employers?

Mary Despe:

Absolutely. So in my line of work, it’s my job to be in touch with as many job seekers and professionals as possible, as well as companies that have a need for certain types of backgrounds. And sometimes it’s driven by the employer need or the client need, saying, hey, I need to recruit a software developer or a business analyst or marketing specialist. And then you go find the people.

But a lot of times, after doing this for a number of years, it’s more about finding people who work in certain areas at different levels, getting to know them and keeping a relationship with them so that when something does come up or you know of companies that are hiring for a particular position or that they may not have a posting right now or something open, but they will in six months, because as a recruiter you’ll be privy to what’s coming and what they’re working on.  You can start making those connections with who you know from a job seeker and professional standpoint and the companies.

Mary Despe:

And there have been many times where I’ve worked with companies and I’ve said, I know you’re not hiring right now, but I know this fantastic person who has done exactly what you’re looking for, what you’re describing that you’ll be doing in the fall. Do you want to meet her or just have a conversation? And so, it’s really important to know your clients that you work with as well as your candidates very well. It’s more than just a one-time conversation.

Lyn Wineman:

Right. You’re building relationships on both ends and being proactive.

Mary Despe:

Absolutely.

Lyn Wineman:

As an employer, I know the hiring process is a lot more delightful when you have already met that candidate, and you’re like, he or she, they are out there and when I’m ready, that’s who I’m going to go call. So I can see how that would work. So what is the top advice that you have right now for people who are looking for a new job?

Mary Despe:

Oh gosh, the top advice. Oh boy. There are so many great bits of advice around this, Lyn. I’d say there’s a tie for the top advice. There’re two things I would say. One thing would be, you always have to believe in yourself, no matter what feedback you’re getting from people.  It’s helpful to hear the feedback and make corrections, but you, yourself . . . how far you go depends on how far you’re going to work on yourself or improve or something. Right? So, you have to believe that you’re going to get there and not to just give up because someone told you no. And I know that sounds simple, but it’s so true. And it’s hard now.

Lyn Wineman:

The mind is fascinating, and you have to convince it that, yeah, you are deserving, and the right thing is out there for you.

Mary Despe:

Absolutely. And then the other bit of very important top advice is that finding a job now requires so much more out of the job seeker. It’s self-promotion, it’s follow-up, it’s salesmanship in ways we never expected out of people before. And this is the responsibility of the job seeker.  I say this because, my first job I applied for, there wasn’t even the internet. We just sent in letters and here you go. And maybe somebody called you. Maybe. Or then you called, did you get my resume and cover letter? Nowadays, I don’t really feel that there’s a lot of following up. I mean, it’s an anonymous kind of environment with the internet. You can apply online and who knows, but job seekers now, they have to follow up in ways where they might not have been given the instruction to do so.

Mary Despe:

They can go on the internet now, on LinkedIn, and find a recruiter that works there and say, hey, can you help me? I applied, et cetera, et cetera, can you help me see what the status is? Or they go to events, be it online virtual fairs or in-person. And if they know that someone from the company is going to be there, it doesn’t matter what the person from the company does for a living, just to get somebody in the flesh to introduce yourself to and make that connection. That’s something you need to do now. You do. And you can’t just sit around and wait, I’m sorry to say that. It’s unfortunate because we have to take a lot of ownership and do a lot more than what was expected from the past.

Lyn Wineman:

That makes a lot of sense to me. So, do you advise that candidates, job seekers, you mentioned LinkedIn, social media, is that a good tool right now for job seekers?

Mary Despe:

Yeah. It’s one of many good tools. I’m an advocate of social media, but at the same time, I’m an advocate for knowing people and having conversations. So, if social media, LinkedIn, leads to a conversation, then an informational interview with someone, great. Then I’m all for that. But I feel that it’s a balance. You can’t just email your way or text message your way with somebody all the time. You do actually have to pick up the phone and have a conversation.

Lyn Wineman:

Now, many of us right now, because we are still in the pandemic, are conducting interviews or participating in interviews virtually. Do you have any advice for those of us in these virtual situations?

Mary Despe:

I do. So a really good piece of advice is, always have your resume in front of you so you can refer to it.

Lyn Wineman:

Oh, that’s a good one.

Mary Despe:

Because, usually, you’re not going to have it if you’re sitting face to face with someone and plus, they’ll be looking at something and it’s like, oh, do you have this version? Oh, no problem. We’re looking at the same thing. So that’s one thing. I know I would get nervous, and I’ll forget sometimes the sequence of things and it’s easy to have that sheet of paper pulled up on your laptop right there.

The other thing is, always be early for your interview. Certainly, speak clearly and still make an engagement as you would in-person. I would say you always want to be professionally dressed from the top up. Sometimes people don’t get the memo that, yes, it’s a video interview from home, but because you’re at home, doesn’t mean you can wear your pajamas for now, or have your hair crazy looking or something. So it’s still very professional.

Lyn Wineman:

I have to say my pet peeve from the working from home era is people who take meetings and interviews with an unmade bed behind them.

Mary Despe:

Oh, no.

Lyn Wineman:

It’s like, go make that bed. I’m having a hard time talking, having this conversation. Think about that.

Mary Despe:

Distracting. Yeah. That is true. Actually, that’s a very good bit of advice. You don’t want to have too many chaotic things happening in the background.

Lyn Wineman:

So then, Mary, I also feel like there are people right now who have jobs, maybe even secure, good paying jobs through everything we’ve been through in the last year, maybe rethinking and not quite sure how to make a positive change, any advice for them?

Mary Despe:

Yes. I think especially in this last year because we’ve been so isolated, the ways that we connect with people in any way that we can, we should make more of an effort to put ourselves out there for connection.

I feel that for people who are looking to change, and they’re gainfully employed, it’s really a great situation to be in. You can actually take a lot of informational interviews in areas that you’re thinking of going into and ask somebody who you think you want to be doing their job or working in their industry to take 15 minutes, 20 minutes, whenever they have time, to just answer questions that you might have. I also think what’s really helpful now, and maybe I’m biased, but I’m a believer in this. For some recruiters, not every recruiter is like this, but there are many very good recruiters, they build that relationship, right?

Mary Despe:

So, it’s helpful to have that kind of relationship with your recruiter. If you want to get a feel for what the market is like for such and such position or the industry, that person is probably going to know the recruiter. Unless they specialize in a particular vertical, they’re going to know different industries and they could probably give you some suggestions on companies that either are doing the kind of things that you’d like to do. Or even to the extent of, if you have a very good relationship, people might say, hey, I know someone who might be willing to speak with you there because they’re a hiring manager of mine, she’s really cool, she’s always on the lookout for people with something. Let me see if I can connect you.

And these are things that you don’t find in newspapers or on the internet. It’s from connections. It’s kind of weird though if you don’t know people and it’s like, you’re just reaching out, but that’s kind of what you need to do. Even though I think most people, as long as you present your ask nicely and not very, open-ended, but very specific, like, can I take 20 minutes of your time next week on a Friday afternoon? That would be great. So it’s not burdensome to them.

Lyn Wineman:

That makes a lot of sense.

Mary Despe:

Yeah.

Lyn Wineman:

Very good. So Mary, I sadly am not in Hawaii today. I am in Nebraska, but Nebraska is a pretty great state other than occasional snow and wind.  One thing about Nebraska is we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country and we actually, at KidGlov, work with different organizations on active recruitment and workforce development campaigns. What advice do you have for employers who are struggling to fill positions?

Mary Despe:

That’s a great question. And actually, this is one of my favorite topics. I was so excited to see this as a question. So this is where recruiting can be really helpful in talent development because you’re building a pipeline of people and events and just the reputation as a company of what you do. So I know that when I work with clients and they are facing low unemployment, they’re like, oh my gosh, it’s so hard to find people, what can we do? We usually come up with creative ways that they’re always being in touch with people they’d like to meet. And it doesn’t have to be posting jobs. It could be sponsoring an event workshop or a lunch and learn on particular topics that you probably would know that other people in that industry at certain professional levels would be interested in. And not even just creating the events, but targeting specific groups, invite them through sponsorships, but maybe not even through sponsorships, but just to be there.

Mary Despe:

And this is where I think it’s great because the sky’s the limit on what you can create for events. And even internally, what companies can do, their employees are really their best resources for referrals and knowing who would fit in and do well at their company. So, a lot of companies have employee resource groups or like support groups within the organization, including them in the brainstorming to get more people. Invite a colleague or something, that just brings in more people that could be a good fit for the organization, for something social or something that is within an industry topic. So it’s very obvious to always recruit for a position and that’s how we’re going to hire, but these are things that have to be happening all year round if you’re building the pipeline.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah. You don’t build the pipeline the day that you need it right? You have to start early. That makes a lot of sense. One of my favorite Albert Einstein quotes is, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result.” I’ve got to imagine, right, for recruitment or job seeking, if what you’re doing hasn’t been working, don’t get discouraged, but start to push the envelope a little bit. It’s got to feel a little bit more like a sales position where you’re either selling yourself or you’re selling your job to a certain extent.

Mary Despe:

Absolutely.

Lyn Wineman:

So, Mary, I’m curious, how does somebody get connected with a recruiter if they want to? They’re out there and they don’t know what their options are.

Mary Despe:

That’s another great question. I mean, I think just from internet research, that’s one way that people get the information now. If you were to look up in your location, staffing agencies or recruitment agency, you can find whoever is listed and determine a list from that. A lot of these websites now, they rank and have ratings and reviews. If it’s okay, then maybe that’s worth it, but I’m always a believer in asking who you trust. So if you have your friend or someone you respect and say, hey, do you know anyone who’s a recruiter that might do this kind of placement in this work. Can you share a name or introduce me to someone? That’s a great way. I mean, I always ask my friends if they happen to know like, who do you trust, and then take it from there and then I’ll do the Google searches for compiling a list.

Lyn Wineman:

Great idea. So another key issue on the employer’s side is employee retention. And we kind of started by talking about that a bit, but what advice do you have for organizations that want to reduce turnover and really, the very expensive costs related to filling a vacant position?

Mary Despe:

Oh gosh. Yeah. I would say for organizations to reduce the turnover, honestly, it taps at some of the things we talked about already, especially this building the pipeline, that it’s not like there’s an opening started. It’s an all year round kind of thing where people, and not just one department, they’re coming up with ideas cross collaboratively. What kind of events, what kind of people do we want to buy into our brand, buy into what we do here? What kind of brainstorming community events as well as industry specific topics for that?

And the thing here is that getting the involvement from people across the organization is key. I know that I’ve worked in some places in the past where it’s always been one department or it’s always been a few people that make those decisions. And it’s like, well, let’s try it a different way. Let’s do a group of people from all sorts of groups and this can be divvied up in so many different ways. Nowadays diversity and inclusion is very big. I mean, it’s always been big, but even bigger now.

Lyn Wineman:

It’s a very, very hot topic right now. I’m glad that you brought it up, right? Yes.

Mary Despe:

Yes. And it’s interesting because from recruiting, in the past, a lot of companies have been like, oh yeah, well, just post or go to the job fair that’s specific to this community. And it’s like, no, we have to do a lot more than just that. We have to engage the input, really understand what kind of programming, even down to job descriptions and how we’re advertising, how’s it communicated. These are things that we’re never good at if we’re in a silo.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah. So right. You’re so right.

Mary Despe:

Yeah.

Lyn Wineman:

Top advice then for companies that really are working hard to, I don’t even know how to say it, Mary, to increase their DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts, from a hiring standpoint, what advice do you give your clients?

Mary Despe:

The first question I ask is, are there employee resource groups within the organization focused in these different community areas? And if it’s no, then I would say, well, maybe this is an opportunity to start, if it’s not a full group. I mean, because sometimes that won’t work if there’s one person in that community, that’s it. It’s like you might need to tweak that a bit, but I would always look first at what do we offer these various communities internally, and then how can we better integrate them into some of the things that make it better for all of us to work here? If it’s something like our benefits program is really not that great and we need more, having people from a good cross section of your organization sit on this committee to either talk through and come up with the top five things that people want to hear and see because it’s their perspective. I mean, I really look at employee resource groups first and what support exists first for companies and then taking it from there because how companies choose to engage their employees, it’s really important. You don’t want them just to be engaged on a level of, hi, I’m only here to do the work. You want a bit of buy-in and they love coming to work. So why do they love that? And so you need people that can help articulate that.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah. Mary, that has always been a philosophy of mine. I just believe that happy team members are more productive. In our business, they’re more creative, they’re more resilient. And then they are more likely in turn to do great work and keep customers happy as well. I mean, what are some of the things that you are seeing top employers do to create that great work culture?

Mary Despe:

So, what I’ve seen, and it’s tough because not everyone can do this, but I’ve worked with consulting clients and they have their workforce, they have roles that they’re doing, but because they believe in this employee resource group and cross-functional team stuff that has nothing to do with their job, they offer these committees or if it’s a project that’s . . .

I know a lot of companies now are working on diversity focused inclusion committees. If people want to participate in this committee, for say like a year, as a part of their work time assignment, they’re given that opportunity to do so. And one client in particular, because you don’t always want to have these meetings outside of work because it’s like, oh my goodness, am I getting paid for this too, or what . . . they make the allotment that the person works on their primary position for a certain amount of time and then they also allocate a certain amount of time in the workday for this extra project work.

Mary Despe:

I thought that was incredible. It’s not like an extracurricular activity. It’s actually put into your workload for a certain amount of time and the teams have to adjust to that. But I mean, this is a priority. I thought that was a huge shift because when you do it like, oh, it’s a voluntary thing and you meet on the weekends or after work, not a lot of people want to do that. What kind of message does it say? I mean, really. So you treat it like it’s a priority at work, but that’s one really effective way that I’ve seen it done.

Lyn Wineman:

It seems like such a great idea because it lets you work on something different and fresh, maybe learn some new skills in the process and form some new relationships with other team members that you might not normally work with. So Mary, how does someone get into this particular line of work? Where you on the playground matching kids with sports or things like that, and fall into this?

Mary Despe:

No, I was not on the playground matching people, but it’s funny. For a long time, this line of work has always been associated with being an extrovert and I’m not one at all. I’m very, very, very introverted, believe it or not. People don’t believe that, but it’s true. And what’s great is the industry, it embraces extroverts and introverts and everything in between. For me personally I have been always working professionally in human resources, but I started out my career as a benefits representative and then I switched over to IT within HR. I know. It’s weird. It was fine. It was fine. I liked the challenge and there were certain things about each of those professions that I enjoyed, but there was something missing. And I would say in the first six years of professional work for me, at that turning point, I was like, okay, I’m totally not happy with what I’m doing.

Mary Despe:

There’s got to be something more. So I made a list of what I do like and what I didn’t. And in every position that I had held, what came up as a thing that I liked was that I loved interviewing people.

Lyn Wineman:

Wow.

Mary Despe:

Like loved it. And I would attract and volunteer unnecessarily for all this additional work. Like, oh, I’ll put together the packets. Oh, I’ll call all these people. So, I knew I was onto something. I talked to a few people in that line of work just for homework. And then I decided to just make the change and I’ve never looked back. I mean, it was the best move that I have ever done.

I would say that a lot of times people don’t know what they want to do right away, but it should focus on what keeps you going and happy and what sustains your curiosity and interests. And for me, it’s always been people. I might not have been the one leading the show or talking in front of the classroom, but I was always the one watching and listening and saying, hey she said something teacher. This person over here, what did you say? I would always be that one that would have a good read of the room, like what people were saying. So bringing them together with something I felt was very natural.

Lyn Wineman:

That’s a very unique skill. You have to be better at what you do, I imagine because you self-diagnosed and went through that process yourself, right? And I think that’s got a good background. So Mary, you are obviously in a position to make a difference in the lives of others. I mean that opportunity to find a job when you’re looking or get in that perfect job is definitely life changing. What advice do you have for our listeners who want to impact positive change either in their careers or with their careers?

Mary Despe:

That’s a powerful question. I think success and that change, that positive impact is going to look differently and feel differently to people. So for some people it’s progressing to the VP of a company and that’s how they’re going to bring people with them and help other people. And that’s great, but a lot of times positive impact is doing your job well, like really well, and that you are helping others learn that job really well. Being a positive role model for them, of how it should look on the job, treating customers in a stellar excellent way. I would say when it comes to impacting positive change with their careers, it’s something that is a very heavy question. I mean, you have to really think about what is it that you want in your career.

Mary Despe:

You’re going to need to desire that. If it’s just something where you make money and that’s it, then you go home, yeah, you’re probably going to need to think about that some more. But I think a lot of people, what brings them to work and enjoying their work has a lot to do with what makes them happy, if they get great satisfaction. And thinking about what that is for you and defining that is going to be key. I know for myself, service is huge to me, in work, outside of work, helping other people. And it’s interesting because I was talking to someone about this. They were saying, well, if you were to help people, why did you go into business? Why didn’t you do something else? And I’m like, that’s a great question. I’m like, but why not go into business? Does the business world not need this perspective?

Lyn Wineman:

The business world, definitely.

Mary Despe:

I would say they do. Yeah. They need to see helping as part of their mission and really translating that, what does it means to me on a day-to-day basis? I know it sounds a little hokey, but it’s true. If you figure out what you’re curious and excited about and really think, okay, how can I continue doing this professionally and outside of my work life, you will stay engaged. It’s going to look a little different for people, but that is a way that really focuses on what does make you happy.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah. Mary, I get to talk to a lot of people on this podcast and it’s one of the things I love the most, that they are very passionate about what they do. Right? And you can just tell, I can just tell when I talk to you, how passionate you are about what you do. You can just see it in somebody’s eyes. You can hear it in their voice. And I think finding that connection, I just believe everybody deserves to have that connection. Right? It makes me sad to see people that maybe are just holding on in a job that they aren’t really passionate about. That’s a lot of time that you spend there. And I think that’s important. So, I’m going to ask you one of my favorite questions next and that is, Mary, I love motivational quotes. Could you give us a few of your own words of wisdom for our listeners?

Mary Despe:

Oh, my own words of wisdom.

Lyn Wineman:

Your own words of wisdom.

Mary Despe:

Oh geez.

Lyn Wineman:

A Mary Despe quote.

Mary Despe:

Okay. Oh boy. I mean, I’m a true believer that to grow and to improve, you can’t be comfortable with yourself.

Lyn Wineman:

Oh yeah. I think that’s a good one.

Mary Despe:

Yeah. Like the two don’t go together.

Lyn Wineman:

Right. You have to embrace.

Mary Despe:

Yes. So that’s one for sure. If I hadn’t stated this, I think it’s clear, no matter what, you have to believe in yourself. Even if people and circumstances point to you to be different and something else and they write you off, you have to truly be your number one fan. I know that sounds corny, but it’s true. I know for myself, I’ll just share a little anecdote. I’m a first generation Filipino-American. So all the kids in our family, we grew up here in the States. However, my parents came from the Philippines and when I grew up, we were the only Filipino family in the community.

Mary Despe:

And a lot of times growing up, it’s very different now, but people would make fun of us or they would say something, or they would tease us. And I knew that even though it was hurtful, I knew somehow when I was younger, it really didn’t matter because everything was going to be okay and whatever hateful or mean things they were saying to me, I knew it wasn’t true. I don’t know how I knew that, but in my heart, I knew it wasn’t true.

And it’s interesting because when you do believe, you can focus on what’s important to you and what you need to do. And it is a motivational quote, but I feel like there’ve been many people in this world that have probably lived that same kind of thing that they might find themselves very lonely or a lot of doubters are passed over for promotion, but you keep going. And it may not work out exactly how you think, but the journey will get you there if you believe that you can do whatever it is for yourself.

Lyn Wineman:

That is great. You gave us two quotes and a story. So thank you. All of that was very, very good. I think you have to truly be your own number one fan. I think that is golden and good advice for everyone to remember. Mary, for people who would like to maybe learn more about you or get connected with you as a recruiter, how can they connect with you?

Mary Despe:

The best place to connect with me is on LinkedIn. So if you are on the website, you can look me up, Mary Despe, and ask to connect. And I love connecting with people. I also have a website. You can reach out that way, marydespe.com. I’m not always the quickest person in getting back to people, but I do get back to people. I do. It may take a few days, but I do.

Lyn Wineman:

Sounds good. And for everyone, we will have that website link in the show notes as well for anybody who wants to connect with Mary. So as we wrap up our time together today, what is the most important thing you’d really like our listeners to remember about the work that you’re doing?

Mary Despe:

I would like people to remember truly that besides them needing to believe in themselves, it’s not a difficult task to do because you’re the only one that’s you. There’s nobody in the world that is going to be exactly like you. And that is your strength, believe it or not. It is. And really understanding and accepting that and working with that so you can position yourself to thrive and make choices that are good, that plays up to your strengths and what you’re willing to work on. I mean, don’t let anybody tell you, oh, no, no, no, that’s not good enough. It’s like, well, I’m the only one who’s me. So you do need to think that and keep that in your spirit as you go forward.

Lyn Wineman:

I love that. We say that in advertising a lot too, that sometimes it’s more important to be different than better, right? People need to understand why your brand or your product or your nonprofit or whatever it is, why they’re different. Mary, this is such an important topic right now. And I really thank you for sharing your story and your advice and for connecting job seekers and employers in positive ways. And I’m going to try and say it better at the end, aloooha. Better?

Mary Despe:

Awesome. Yes. That’s perfect Lyn. You’re ready for a trip out here.

Lyn Wineman:

I am ready for a trip out there. I’ll see you tomorrow. All right.

Mary Despe:

Okay, great. We have room at my house. Come on.

Lyn Wineman:

All right. Mary, thank you so much for your time. This has been a lot of fun talking with you and lots of good advice. Thanks so much.

Mary Despe:

Thank you, Lynn.

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